Honda K20Z4 - Cranking issue

Hello everybody,

Just starting to run a HONDA K20 Z4 engine with EMUBLACK V3.

Struggling to start on cranking … Scope seems odd, but once the engine is fired, everything run well.

I am new to ECUMASTER, and I don’t really understand the cranking scope (if anyone has a written explanation).

Here the map.

BECT_EMUB_HONDA_K20_Z4_SP98_20260203_V49.emub3 (65.4 KB)

Here is the latest scope, and data of the engine cranking.

scope_202623_1939.emubscp31.emubscp3 (624 Bytes)

20260203_1958.emublog32.emublog3 (1.7 MB)

20260203_1917.emublog3 (588.0 KB)

Also the log from the old start when engine is idling (I was working on injection time)first_real_start_20260125.emublog3 (6.9 MB)

problem_Ign_change_from20to6.emublog3 (2.5 MB)

(Already read that a K20 is “hard” to start, but didn’t found a proper solution for my case).

And I did not tried on V2 software, is it a solution ?

Thank you all ! :smile:

UPDATE

If someone has already been struggling with cranking RPM signal loss …

Can’t find, wiring’s fine. 12 teeth + 1 / TDC Angle ok and first tooth ok also.

Kinda lost :shaking_face:

I think you have several issues here and your starting issues looks to be related to fuel because if we judge by lambda its lean during cranking and the engine needs way more fuel especialy on cold.

  1. Fuel table, on Idle your VE should be around 40-50% assuming the engine data was filled in correctly including the fuel injector size and dead times.
  2. The Injector phase start from a 380 degree value and then tune from there.
  3. If the above will not help enough start adding cranking fuel for the clt temp you are in.

Not sure but did you synchronized your mechanical timing with EMU trigger angle ?

100 thanks for your answer, and you are right, my starting issue is more related to fueling.

But, my main concern is about cranking trigger resolution. I checked the trigger with ign angle lock during the first start (when it was actually starting).

I started with 12+1 teeth, Teeth num 10 and 40° angle. Then, after check and calculation, it was teeth num 7 and 102° angle.

Agree that the cranking fueling is not perfect. Inj dead time took from wizard (+/- correct).

What I don’t understand is why the RPM goes from 600 (ready to idle) to 0 and so on the sync is lost … Wiring seems fine.
Not sure about the trigger setup (Pull Up, filter etc), but tried multiple mix

“What I don’t understand is why the RPM goes from 600 (ready to idle) to 0 and so on the sync is lost … Wiring seems fine.”

  • Hall sensors require a pull up, try different pull up values
  • The 102 trigger angle looks suspicious because in the ECUmaster requirements for this value it states that it should be round 60 +/- 10 degree

When the RPM drops to 0, you can sometimes see the “Unexpected missing tooth” error.

This error can be generated by any incorrect signal on the crank or cam.
It could be missing, or there may be an additional edge on the crank or cam generated by noise.

Is this OEM trigger setup, or aftermarket?
Are both sensors 3-pin Hall effect?

Try setting the maximum filter for both crank and cam.

Thank you for your explanation !

trigger wheel is OEM from K20, so 12+1

Hall effect for the 3 sensors (crk, cam in & cam ex). Shielded to écu power gnd. 12V supply

ok Will try max filter. Do you recommend using internal PullUp 1K ? Also read that using rising might help for resolution : true ?

Hall sensors require pull up resistor.
Pull up 1k or 820R is ok.

I don’t know what you mean by resolution.
But changing the edge can help with correct decoding.

Remember that any change in the trigger can affect the actual ignition angle, so when you finalize the trigger settings, you should perform a final check with a timing light.

Lot better with high filter !!! And also the rising edge help before going with high filter level.

Will see tomorrow with higher cranking fuel values because engine likes the amount of brake cleaner we put before DBW !!!

Keep you informed. :crossed_fingers:

So, thanks to Marek & Alex, the cranking losing has been resolved by the high level filter + rising edge.

Honda K20 trigger is now correctly mapped (first tooth & first trigger angle).
The biggest problem was a wrong wheel triggering (I suppose).

Now that the trigger has been checked with stroboscopic, it starts good.

But still having (sometimes) sync lost on the trigger status signal on log
Here attached.

20260207_1731.emublog3 (3.9 MB)

BECT_EMUB_HONDA_K20_Z4_SP98_20260207_V86.emub3 (194.7 KB)

Will continue to run, and perfect also the cranking & starting fueling and so on.

Hi, OEM crank trigger wheel setup is a bit problematic when starting for EMU.
I advise you to modify the original wheel from 12+1 to 12-2 (just cut 2 teeth off), i’m doing it to all k-series that i touch lately. It solves the low battery cranking trigger losses. But first of all remember to always do the basics, check timing and all the setting 2 times before even trying to start a fresh engine.

Thanks Dadi (seems odd lol :rofl: )

Since you seems to know these engine, may I ask you how you wire the 3-Hall sensors ?

I used the same 12v as the one I used to wire the 12V (pin 13 on black con) on EMUB (wire coming from a relay) - 18AWG gauge
Maybe this setup is not reliable.

Also, your information make sense because I was this :pinching_hand: close to modify the trig wheel also.

Best practice is to use shielded cables for those sensors and knock sensor. Where you going to take 12V from is not that important, only make sure it’s stable voltage for all main components of the harness, for the rest just follow the manual.

Used M27500-22SB3T23 wire.

Shield has been wired to ECU GND.
So, in my opinion, it has been done correctly.

UPDATE

With a park battery SuperB, the engine starts a lot better !
Without park battery, I find sometimes “Unexpected Missing tooth” … Still, even with quite good engine setting on EMU.

We were at the dyno last friday, the engine runs perfectly (even at high rev 9500).
240hp with OEM camshaft and 12.5 comp piston.

I was asking myself if the OEM trigger is really good for reading at “very” low cranking (175RPM).

I drawn a 24-2 trigger wheel for K20 crankshaft.
And I will test it. :hammer_and_wrench:

Take look on these trigger wheel Delacruz Motorsports K series Tigger wheel . My kseries also have problem with first start and i am gonna buy or make 36-1 .

Made a drawing for laser cut like this.

24 teeth complete, and you delete 2 teeth you need for your offset angle.

Maybe its not relevant because its Emu Pro but here is my K24 on cold start after sitting for a few weeks. On hot start its faster and its Stock K series 12+1 trigger wheel.

That is perfect start , on my black v3 is not possible to run that quick .